House Votes To Ban Waterboarding, Bush Promises Veto

I’m getting rather jaded every time the Democratically controlled congress gets set to do something good.  The next venture in how quickly hope gets crushed like a cigarette butt comes in the form of a bill that just made it through the House that would ban waterboarding and other forms of harsh interrogation such as mock executions.

The bill passed by a paltry 222-199, a far cry from being invincible to the threat that the President has promised, and of course this says nothing about its chances in the Senate which I’m sure aren’t as good.

No, the President wants his ability to torture without torturing, and I have to admit a particular fondness for the following paragraph from the above story:

The administration particularly opposes restricting the CIA to interrogation methods approved by the military in 2006. That document prohibits forcing detainees to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; placing hoods or sacks over detainees’ heads or duct tape over their eyes; beating, shocking, or burning detainees; threatening them with military dogs; exposing them to extreme heat or cold; conducting mock executions; depriving them of food, water, or medical care; and waterboarding.

The only thing that I think might sicken me more than the fact that the current administration has become so brazen in endorsing torture by any other name is that I have little doubt that tomorrow there will still be a slew of neoconservatives that are unconvinced that those techiniques listed above are torture, are not justified at any time, and should never be used.

Yes, that means that I’ll probably have to write yet another post on why torture’s bad and we shouldn’t do it in the near future.

sigh

27 Responses to “House Votes To Ban Waterboarding, Bush Promises Veto”

  1. William McDaniel says:

    I suppose we should just hand out candy and send them on a holiday for what they did. You liberal idiots kill me. What you fail to understand is that we have to fight them there or fight them here. You bleeding heart sissies are only a handful of reasons the US is going down the drain. But thats another story all together.

  2. See?

    It’s like I’m psychic.

  3. William McDaniel says:

    I guess in a way your correct. I’d sure rather be beheaded like they do their captives instead of being tortured alittle bit. Being psychic, I guess you knew that was coming.

  4. Well being psychic is a hit or miss art. I couldn’t have predicted you would come back, but I figured if you did come back, you would say something like that.

    Since you have returned once, I think my ESP is telling me you might again, so let me ask you this. What good do you think torture accomplishes? I’m not being sarcastic or negative in any way, I’m merely asking the question.

  5. William McDaniel says:

    Torture over a long period of time would be fruitless and inhumane. But for that initial shock and finding out what they know is the real reason its done. As far as extended torture and the naked twister games I hear they have been making them play I definitely do not agree with. But I really do see the need in extracting the information at the beginning and keeping them locked up if they are indeed terrorists.

    Oh and psychic you must be sir.

  6. Thank you sir.

    Okay, so we both agree that prolonged torture is not a good thing. See? Things aren’t always black and white.

    You do make the argument, though, that a little torture up front can be just what the doctor ordered in order to get vital intelligence, so next questions. How valid is that intelligence? What is to keep the interogatee from lying just to provide some relief from said torture?

  7. William McDaniel says:

    I do agree that torture should be involved unless the detainee wants to leave his party and spill it. Very doubtful in my experience. I’m a desert veteran and have dealt with them and know that most are not cooperative. I also see that the program needs an overhaul and someone who can be trusted with the human rights of the prisoners be put in charge to oversee what is going on.

    As far as knowing what information is reliable and what is not is the job of investigators who follow up on the leads. And yes the information may/may not be reliable. But we have to get the information we need somehow.

  8. There’s a reason I’m asking you these questions, William. It’s called the Socratic method. What we’re trying to do is get to a logical basis for terrorism.

    So I ask again, how can we ever know if torture retrieved information is actionable and valid?

    Obviously you don’t have to answer the question, but if you truly believe that this is what we should be doing, I would really hope that you go through this process with me, and the reason is simple. At least half a dozen times I’ve gone through my anti-torture argument. I know it doesn’t work, but I end up having to do it anyway. With you, I don’t want it to be an argument, I want it to be more of a shared experience. I want you and me to go certain places, intellectually, together. If at the end of it, we disagree, than we disagree. If, on the other hand, we use reason and you see things in a new light, I think that would be a boon for you, me, and America as a whole.

    I’m not asking you to abandon everything you believe in, sir. I’m merely inviting you to question it, not in some conspiracy theory, “the truth is out there” fashion, but as all reasonable adults should question what they know, if for no other reason than to validate what is to them true.

    So, again, I ask, how can we know if information received from torture interrogation is valid and actionable? What steps must be taken to ensure that it is? And, I agree with you, we have to get that information somehow, but is torture really the best or even only way of getting it?

  9. matttbastard says:

    I’m a desert [sic] veteran

    And I’m the fucking Pope.

    DNFTT.

  10. William McDaniel says:

    Yes, I agree. I dont want an argument, or hard feelings. I just dont agree with saying that torture is completely wrong. Its a tried and true tactic. Our military intelligence can only go so far. But if we can get any information be it valid or invalid from the detainees we have something to go on. As I said before I do not agree with prolonged torture or degrading them. They are humans also. Just because most of them really do hate us with every breath they take doesnt mean the feeling is mutual.

    We cant be sure about the information. There is no way of knowing. But we do know that they would attack again right? (My esp at work). I vote to repel it at costs. If it means water boarding them, or sterile needles under fingernails……well I’m all for it sir.

  11. I’m in a time crunch for now, but I will respond to this later this afternoon.

  12. William McDaniel says:

    Me too…going out of town but will try to keep up. May take awhile for me to get back.

  13. Mr. McDaniel, you make two comments that I would like to delve into further. The first is your assertion that torture is a “tried and true” tactic. Is it really? What basis do you have to go on for that, and if it is really the case, then why are such processes not allowed in our own domestic systems?

    The second aspect is the idea that these detainees are most certainly going to attack again, and if torture stops it, then it is justified. Here I have two questions. The first is, are all of our captives truly determined to attack us again if set free? The second, does torture actually act as a deterrent against further attacks from that individual and/or (and this is specifically important) those who are related to him, friends with him, or identify with him on a cultural/social level?

  14. William McDaniel says:

    Mr. Moore

    Torture…tried and true. Sure it is. If it wasnt it would not still be used. Allowed in our society. Sure it is. You dont see everything that goes on in an interrogation room at the police department. Torture is by no means limited to a beating. Lets look at pschological torture. Think about it. If you were tied up and I said I was going to kill your wife and kids if you didnt tell me what I wanted to know, and your information had better be valid…..what would you say? Would you tell me what I wanted to hear or the facts?

    As far as attacking again. What do you think? Do you actually think they wouldnt if they had the chance? I dont believe that they will love the US if we just set them free. They hate the western world. But you know that.

  15. William McDaniel says:

    I’m off for the weekend. Be back sunday sometime and I’ll check back with you.

    William

  16. It is interesting that you would say that something is used because it is successful for its intended purpose. Ad hoc ergo promptor hoc. One thing follows another therefore it must have been caused by that other which is not necessarily always the case. We must also make the distinction that the continued use of a thing could be because it is successful as opposed to successful for its intended purpose. In other words, is it not possible that torture has been used throughout history not for getting at the truth, but for other purposes as well?

    In this light, I answer your question easily. I tell you what I think you want to hear. As an innocent person, I would first of course tell you I know nothing, regardless of if you torture me or not. If that does not satisfy you, and you begin to torture me, or employ psychological torture (for the record, many of the techniques I am strictly opposed to are just as bad as psychological torture as they are physical torture), I still know nothing. Likely, you are going to think I’m lying, and will continue to torture because your goal is to get an answer, not no answer, that’s the point, isn’t it?

    Thus, at that juncture, I would be forced into a position where in order to get the torture to end, I would have to make something up, preferably something that fits into the realm of what you are looking for.

    As someone with information, the game doesn’t get much simpler, particularly for those who are jihadists who truly believe in what they are doing. Again, believable lies or real intel that is comparably insignificant is much more likely than the hardhitting stuff.

    But, you asked a question, and I answered. I would tell you want you wanted to hear, not necessarily the truth. And this is me, I’m pretty wimpy.

    Your second set of inquiries, however, were merely just mine redirected back to me. Again, I would ask that you actually answer them, and with them I will add this new question from your comments. You say they hate the Western World. Why, do you suppose, that might be? Warning, I will not take our freedoms as an answer.

  17. And, have a good weekend.

  18. William McDaniel says:

    Ok back from shopping.

    Torture is used because it works. Its well documented. I dont have the time to go look it up for you. You seem fairly smart so do it yourself with google. As far as making torture illegal….well they just may on paper. But you can be certain that it will go on anyway. The only reason they are saying (illegal) is so to satisfy democrats and sissies.

    And as far as your reply to if was you on the spot. I promise you that you would give me facts. You would not just tell me what I wanted to hear. Because your falmilies lives would be at stake as well as your own. And there are methods that are foolproof to get information. You havent scratched the surface with water boarding. Actually water boarding would be at the bottom of the list I’m talking about.

    National security……..Yours as well as mine….depends on what the MEN of this country do. I listen to your rambling and realize that I’m glad its them doing the job and not yourself. You would probably hand them flowers and hug them like some 1960’s hippy.

    As far as jihadists who truly believe in what they are doing….even they will break. Its that simple.

    Oh and what I said about them hating the western world…..You really have to be crazy to ask me why they hate us and then say WARNING…I wont take our freedoms as an answer. News flash for you. THEY HATE EVERYONE THAT EVERYONE! THEY CANT EVEN AGREE WITH FELLOW MUSLIMS.

    Hows that? Wake up and realize these things. And also thats its only you and I discussing your article. Do you actually make money from writing your opinions? If so, well you and I both will starve.

  19. Matt was right.

    One of these days I will learn. dftt

  20. William McDaniel says:

    Thats it?

  21. William McDaniel says:

    Come on now. Your a lawyer in Texas.

    Let me guess…..civil rights? Maybe NAACP?

    You have to have something….Man up.

    Democrats are liberal sissies. If the concerns of the US were left up to you we would all be wearing flowers in our hair and getting our butts kicked.

    As I was Christmas shopping today. Oh, let me say that Christmas is about Jesus being born to save the world. I bet that offends you also. Did I say I hate gays and hispanics? Well I do. I also hate terrorists and if it means torturing all of them to keep my kids safe I dont mind at all if they are in discomfort. If you dont like America please leave. It would be a better place without you whiners here.

    Its all about human rights…..well the normal white, straight families are the minority now if you havent noticed. Screw the muslims. Being a lawyer and all, what this country is coming too probably hasnt hit home to you yet as the mexicans and probably terrorists are pouring across the border. But not in your gated community I bet.

    In closing…..lets stop torture and trying to find out anything. Assuming you have kids would some low life terrorist be worth your child getting blown up at the mall? I know your answer. FFS let them go home.

  22. William McDaniel says:

    DFTT……FFS

    Come now……lets delve into each others souls.

    You know your a beaten man. A coward hiding behind a book of laws. And we all know a lawyers ethics. I’m really surprised at you giving up.

    DFTT coming at this point doesnt surprise me. Easy way out huh?

    Assuming we do what you liberals want…..let me know if the next mall bombing catches your family in it.

    William

  23. Mr. McDaniel.

    I’ll have you know that I’m currently a civillian working in the Department of the Navy after serving ten years as a Petty Officer in the Navy. No, I’m no lawyer.

    Unfortunately, though I’ve built a thick skin to where your insults don’t really bother me much, I find myself a little disappointed that I’ve wasted a great deal of my time because I thought this would be an argument in good faith.

    I’m not asking you a single one of these questions because I want you to do my leg work for me, and in fact, I’ll have you know that I’ve done most of the leg work myself, including reading several books on the subject (the author of one of those books I still keep in touch with from time to time), as well as spending a good portion of my time keeping abreast on current affairs and reading relevent articles. I’m not going to claim I’m the most knowledgable person on the subject, but I do believe that I’ve earned the right to not be treated as though I’m winging it.

    No, I asked you the questions because I’ve delivered the same arguments over and over, and come up with nothing. So I was hoping that through decent conversation it might be possible to get a better result. But I’m afraid while my excursions into excercising my free speech doesn’t pay me, it takes up far too much of my time for me to waste having an intelligent conversation with someone who isn’t.

  24. William McDaniel says:

    You are still a coward and a liberal. And if anyone has wasted their time it has been me. Your liberalistic views are as lame as yourself as an American. Spineless people such as yourself shouldn’t even talk.

    Please leave the affairs of security of this country to the men.

    Intelligent conversation……you are too funny.

    You bend everything you read and say into what you want. I can tell that already. And shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a military installation.

    And your arguments are petty. Just like your rank.

    You want an answer, and you exercise your free speech that you have done nothing to gain or defend. Well, here it is. What the military has done and still does is protect your right to be a negitive about everything we do.

    I really do hope someday that you see the big picture.

  25. If waterboarding is done properly, it is absolutely an effective interrogation technique.

    Here is an authentic demonstration — believed to have been leaked by the military:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEejbqfHs80

    Follow the steps closely.

  26. William McDaniel says:

    I think the op is done Thomas.

  27. William McDaniel says:

    I think I know now…..you saw the movie (Rendition). Thats explains it and where you get your facts from. Please dont try to enlighten the public anymore on what you see in movies.

    William

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