<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd"
	xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Factchecking.  How quaint.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:39:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint/comment-page-1#comment-47839</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commentsfromleftfield.com/?p=6809#comment-47839</guid>
		<description>Just to make one thing very clear - criticism of union leadership does not equate to criticism of union workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to make one thing very clear &#8211; criticism of union leadership does not equate to criticism of union workers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint/comment-page-1#comment-47838</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commentsfromleftfield.com/?p=6809#comment-47838</guid>
		<description>tas - My point is that Detroit&#039;s problems are a combination of a wide variety of factors - building cars that no one wants is a big part of it, to be sure, and no honest observer will say otherwise.  But to simply point to one factor and say that it is the sole contributing factor is terribly simplistic - failures of this magnitude take a lot of work from a number of quarters; even by Leonhart&#039;s estimation, the UAW results in an additional $800 per car.   To put it another way, people would be willing to buy more crap cars if those crap cars were significantly less expensive than the good cars.  Conversely, people would be willing to pay more to buy a good car than a crap car.  But in this situation, people are left paying more money for a crap car.  

And, as I said, the UAW leadership is outright terrible - in my experience, there are only one or two other unions that are in its ballpark in terms of corruption and failing to truly look out for its membership&#039;s best interests.  

Now, perhaps you could say that ultimately the problems caused by bad labor deals are the fault of management, who agreed to the bad labor deals.  Which certainly has a lot of truth to it.   But if that&#039;s the case, then we&#039;re left with a conclusion that labor unions, particularly the UAW, have a pretty strong hand when it comes to dealings with management, and thus don&#039;t need additional legislation to make that hand even stronger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tas &#8211; My point is that Detroit&#8217;s problems are a combination of a wide variety of factors &#8211; building cars that no one wants is a big part of it, to be sure, and no honest observer will say otherwise.  But to simply point to one factor and say that it is the sole contributing factor is terribly simplistic &#8211; failures of this magnitude take a lot of work from a number of quarters; even by Leonhart&#8217;s estimation, the UAW results in an additional $800 per car.   To put it another way, people would be willing to buy more crap cars if those crap cars were significantly less expensive than the good cars.  Conversely, people would be willing to pay more to buy a good car than a crap car.  But in this situation, people are left paying more money for a crap car.  </p>
<p>And, as I said, the UAW leadership is outright terrible &#8211; in my experience, there are only one or two other unions that are in its ballpark in terms of corruption and failing to truly look out for its membership&#8217;s best interests.  </p>
<p>Now, perhaps you could say that ultimately the problems caused by bad labor deals are the fault of management, who agreed to the bad labor deals.  Which certainly has a lot of truth to it.   But if that&#8217;s the case, then we&#8217;re left with a conclusion that labor unions, particularly the UAW, have a pretty strong hand when it comes to dealings with management, and thus don&#8217;t need additional legislation to make that hand even stronger.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tas</title>
		<link>http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint/comment-page-1#comment-47822</link>
		<dc:creator>tas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commentsfromleftfield.com/?p=6809#comment-47822</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This is not to say that Detroit’s problems are solely the result of union leadership. However, to say that the UAW is free from blame here is not accurate, either.&lt;/i&gt;

I disagree.  It was Detroit that chose not to compete with foreign companies in the smaller car market, otherwise known in the parlance of recent times as &quot;cars that sell&quot;.  Where is GMs answer to the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit?  The Chevy Aveo?  Please.  As for Ford, I&#039;ve driven their Focus and that car is a piece of shit as well. 

And where is GM or Ford&#039;s answer to the Toyota Prius?  We&#039;re all still waiting for that one -- we&#039;ve been waiting for a decade. 

GM et al. don&#039;t have a viable product on the market to sell right now.  Their product line is geared towards cheap gasoline but they didn&#039;t have a plan for high gas prices.  The UAW can&#039;t be a scapegoat for poor management.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This is not to say that Detroit’s problems are solely the result of union leadership. However, to say that the UAW is free from blame here is not accurate, either.</i></p>
<p>I disagree.  It was Detroit that chose not to compete with foreign companies in the smaller car market, otherwise known in the parlance of recent times as &#8220;cars that sell&#8221;.  Where is GMs answer to the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit?  The Chevy Aveo?  Please.  As for Ford, I&#8217;ve driven their Focus and that car is a piece of shit as well. </p>
<p>And where is GM or Ford&#8217;s answer to the Toyota Prius?  We&#8217;re all still waiting for that one &#8212; we&#8217;ve been waiting for a decade. </p>
<p>GM et al. don&#8217;t have a viable product on the market to sell right now.  Their product line is geared towards cheap gasoline but they didn&#8217;t have a plan for high gas prices.  The UAW can&#8217;t be a scapegoat for poor management.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DrGail</title>
		<link>http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint/comment-page-1#comment-47817</link>
		<dc:creator>DrGail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commentsfromleftfield.com/?p=6809#comment-47817</guid>
		<description>Mark, you make a good point that the $73/hour number would get even larger if the Big Three laid off more workers.

I disagree, however, with:
&lt;i&gt;But no one who is opposed to the bailout thinks that Detroit’s problems are just the result of the unions,&lt;/i&gt;

In fact, much of the hyperventilation about how the Big Three got into so much trouble centers precisely around the unions, and most especially the union workers&#039; rates of pay and the benefits extended (by contract) to retirees.  

This has been the mantra of senators from right-to-work states with Japanese, Korean, or European auto plants.  That their hidden agenda is to turn public sentiment against unions in general and to weaken the UAW in particular is apparent to many of us, but the message still gets promulgated that &quot;union workforce = need for Big Three bailout&quot;.  

Rather than sharing the stage with bad management, bad PR, and poor market research, the efforts to blame the UAW deflect attention from other, more pervasive, reasons for the demise of the Big Three.  It is for precisely that reason that I thought the David Leonhart article was so significant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, you make a good point that the $73/hour number would get even larger if the Big Three laid off more workers.</p>
<p>I disagree, however, with:<br />
<i>But no one who is opposed to the bailout thinks that Detroit’s problems are just the result of the unions,</i></p>
<p>In fact, much of the hyperventilation about how the Big Three got into so much trouble centers precisely around the unions, and most especially the union workers&#8217; rates of pay and the benefits extended (by contract) to retirees.  </p>
<p>This has been the mantra of senators from right-to-work states with Japanese, Korean, or European auto plants.  That their hidden agenda is to turn public sentiment against unions in general and to weaken the UAW in particular is apparent to many of us, but the message still gets promulgated that &#8220;union workforce = need for Big Three bailout&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Rather than sharing the stage with bad management, bad PR, and poor market research, the efforts to blame the UAW deflect attention from other, more pervasive, reasons for the demise of the Big Three.  It is for precisely that reason that I thought the David Leonhart article was so significant.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/12/factchecking-how-quaint/comment-page-1#comment-47815</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commentsfromleftfield.com/?p=6809#comment-47815</guid>
		<description>First of all - the $73/hour number is - and always has been - a worthless number that is so disingenuous as to undermine many of the good arguments against the bailout (of which they are very, very many).  Indeed, the way in which it is calculated would mean that if the Big Three laid off more workers, the number would get even bigger.

Second of all - the per car argument is much more important.  Here, he acknowledges that at least $800 per car is added due to the UAW&#039;s influence, which is not chump change.  

This is not to say that Detroit&#039;s problems are solely the result of union leadership.  However, to say that the UAW is free from blame here is not accurate, either.  Indeed, just as there can be good and bad management, there can also be good and bad unions - and, as far as unions go, the UAW&#039;s leadership is about as bad as it gets (and yes, I am more than willing to point to unions with what I think is &quot;good&quot; leadership).  

But no one who is opposed to the bailout thinks that Detroit&#039;s problems are just the result of the unions, only that the UAW is a significant contributing factor.  But so is bad management, bad public relations, and poor market research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all &#8211; the $73/hour number is &#8211; and always has been &#8211; a worthless number that is so disingenuous as to undermine many of the good arguments against the bailout (of which they are very, very many).  Indeed, the way in which it is calculated would mean that if the Big Three laid off more workers, the number would get even bigger.</p>
<p>Second of all &#8211; the per car argument is much more important.  Here, he acknowledges that at least $800 per car is added due to the UAW&#8217;s influence, which is not chump change.  </p>
<p>This is not to say that Detroit&#8217;s problems are solely the result of union leadership.  However, to say that the UAW is free from blame here is not accurate, either.  Indeed, just as there can be good and bad management, there can also be good and bad unions &#8211; and, as far as unions go, the UAW&#8217;s leadership is about as bad as it gets (and yes, I am more than willing to point to unions with what I think is &#8220;good&#8221; leadership).  </p>
<p>But no one who is opposed to the bailout thinks that Detroit&#8217;s problems are just the result of the unions, only that the UAW is a significant contributing factor.  But so is bad management, bad public relations, and poor market research.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

