The Most Impressive Drivel I’ve Read in a Long Time
Read this. I know it’s long, but read the whole thing. Then come back and tell me if you think I am right that Jeff Goldstein is simultaneously the most self-important and the most appallingly awful writer on the Internet.
Even though it’s difficult, try to separate the substance of his argument, which is profoundly flawed, from the quality of his writing. One could spend many paragraphs deconstructing his argument, but my point here is the writing itself. To me, it comes across almost as a parody of bad writing.
Now I can’t get that Jethro Tull song “Thick as a Brick” out of my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toHlMD50eYY
Taking those things into consideration, a reasonable person would conclude that you meant what your post said, and that any apparent backtracking you have done since then is just that, backtracking.
But you don’t know what my post said. That is, you can pronounce and read the words, but you can’t know what they mean, because there is no general understanding of what any word means. Meaning is determined by intent.
But let’s assume for the sake of argument that a reasonable person *could* conclude there was some traditionally or widely shared understanding of what a word like “self-important” or “appalling” meant, based on the dictionary definition and the way most people seem to intend to use those words. In that case, wouldn’t a reasonable person be able to reasonably conclude that when an adult white male who lived through the civil rights movement or has learned about it in school and is reasonably well-educated about the history of blacks and whites in the American South from 1619 through, say, 1968 greets a black adult male with “Hey boy, how ya doin’?” said black adult male has every reason and right to take offense no matter what said white adult male claims his “intent” was?
Do I have the right to take offense if I’m called a “kike” or a “dirty Jew,” regardless of any protestations by the speaker of those words that they had no anti-semitic intentions at all?
Damn. I knew she didn’t understand the topic, but I didn’t realize she was that clueless.
go back and read what you said to me about Wright. I’ll wait….
Let me try to give you a real world example, Kathy. I grew up in a very white area of WV, not because it was particularly racist, but just because there was never a reason for black people to move there. Among my friends and I, boy was a term of endearment, at late night pool tournaments at a friends house, for instance, it was very common to hear someone say “look at that boy shoot pool!” when someone was on a hot streak.
Later at college I had befriended quite a few blacks because of my love of jazz and blues, and one night was the only white guy shooting pool with them in the dorm rec room, I knew that boy was a touchy word around blacks, but wasn’t really thinking about it as I had gotten very comfortable with our friendship and when one of the guys got hot I said, without thinking, obviously “look at the boy shoot pool!”
I meant no offense, in fact I meant it as a term of endearment, and most of them realized it and laughed it off. A couple of guys couldn’t let it go, however, and forever after my friendship with them was strained, because I could never just relax and be myself for fear of offense.
I’ve been narrative ignored, I suppose.
go back and read what you said to me about Wright. I’ll wait…
I read it the first time, smartass. Your response does not address what I said. Maybe you should ask me what I meant instead of being such a snot face, eh? (and I intend that term in the most complimentary way possible).
Oh, I get it… repeating “intend” in a mocking tone now substitutes for a substantive argument.
Sup Captain Cocko. I expected there to be only 40 comments when I returned to my computer — I see your patrol from Troop 1 Trollville must really, really not have anything better to do today. I’ll be sure to get you guys the number for some cheap hookers.
The example I dealt with posited a child yelling for his boy dog in the presence of a black male. Not quite the scenario you’ve set up here.
I know. I did that because in the paragraph below, which you quoted in your post, it’s quite clear which of the three scenarios using the word “boy” would be offensive to an adult black male. Yet you chose one of the two other scenarios which it is obvious the Patterico reader was not suggesting would be offensive to an adult black male. In fact, that was the reader’s entire point. You chose to make your argument that the meaning of words should be derived from their intent, using this quote from Patterico’s blog, by pointing to a specific context given in the quote in which the word “boy” is clearly not being used as a racial slur, when that was obviously and plainly NOT the context the Patterico reader was claiming would cause offense.
That was very dishonest of you, and it’s a tactic that, in my experience of reading your blog (and granted I don’t read it every day) you have taken repeatedly. I have no respect for that.
Actually, there are circumstances where I would call someone a “dirty Joooo” (and I’d spell it like that to make a point) and they would have no reason to take offense at me, because in fact I am not the least bit anti-semitic. My use of the offensive term is in protest of those who actually do think of Jews as “dirty”. In spoken language, I don’t have the luxury of misspelling it, but I do have some other cues I can use.
I’m pretty sure that if I call Jeff a “dirty Joooo” in such a context, he won’t be one bit offended at me, because he’ll understand my intent.
Maybe that’s the context in which black folk can call each other “nigga” with no offense being taken.
And also, by the way, in that quoted paragraph, the Patterico reader who posted it as a comment did not say that the example of a boy calling his dog was in the presence of a black man. He just said that the meaning of the word “boy” changes with the context (as do most words), and the example of the boy calling his dog was one example of one such context. There is no black man hearing the boy call his dog in the reader’s example. You added that yourself.
You know what I always say when someone calls me “smartass”? “It’s better to be a smartass than a dumbass”.
In fact, I am capable at using facial tissue quite well, and my response was entirely on point:
Now, you’re saying that we agree that Jeremiah Wright is not a racist. (That’s a neat trick, as I said nothing whatsoever about him.) Presumably that has something to do with him disagreeing with one or more of your political positions, so that you’re offering him as a counterexample against the routine I describe. If you can’t find any such disagreement, then whether he is a racist is orthogonal to the routine.
I have been searching for hours now as to where Jeff Goldstein’s butt has gone! Darleen? Pablo? The Monster? B Moe? Success! The Goldstein anus and all its rewards are here, splayed out for me like turd treasures!
I’m pretty sure that if I call Jeff a “dirty Joooo” in such a context, he won’t be one bit offended at me, because he’ll understand my intent.
No, of course he would not be offended, and of course he would understand your intent — because you are a regular reader and perhaps a personal friend, but in any case someone Jeff knows well enough to know the intent.
If Jeff did not know you well, or not at all, or you were someone who had shown yourself to be prejudiced in the past, Jeff might very well be offended. I know I would be, in the latter scenario, and wouldn’t be in the former.
The difference is *context.* Exactly the concept that Jeff, and many of his readers apparently, feel has no bearing on meaning.
I wonder if Patterico knows what goes on here? I’ve gone ot of my way to not give offense, instead asking for clarification, and the Left Fielder ignores that.
Seems like a lesson there somewhere.
You know what I always say when someone calls me “smartass”? “It’s better to be a smartass than a dumbass”.
You are in trouble then, because you are both.
Just dial 1-800-DAR-CLICK.
Or just tell Pablo you’re Jeff G. and he’ll blow you for a baloney sandwich.
Well, coming from you, that’s quite the compliment.
Maybe that’s the context in which black folk can call each other “nigga” with no offense being taken.
I couldn’t say, not being black — and for the record, that word is offensive to me whether it’s used by a white or a black person (unless it’s being used to make a point, as in your example). I taught middle school and high school for a few months in the Bronx, and that word was used freely and constantly between students who were all either black or Hispanic. It bothered me a lot. But that does not give me the right, or the permission, to use the word myself. Because some black people, and especially younger ones, don’t understand the history of that word and how it was used to terrorize and degrade black people, doesn’t mean that now it’s okay for me, as a white person, to use a word that, from my mouth, would be taken as a direct attack and an intentional insult.
Terrorize?
I knew there was some reason she always hung around Protein Wisdom.
Yeah but if I tell everyone I’m Jeff G, I’ll get my cock punched more than sucked.
A fucking grown man and a father (or so his wife tells him) lamely trying to pick a fight over an internet discussion?
Yes, thats JG!
Come on, tas. Let’s meet up. You can call me all the names you want — like Cockula or what have you — and in return, I can meet the guy who, though broke, spends his days bitching about it on his blog instead of going out and finding a fucking job that gives him more than a single wait shift a week.
I can certainly see why you need Obama. I mean, you can’t be expected to feed yourself! Tell me, did you swallow your “pride” and take the foodstamps? Or are you making do on the government loans…?
Not that tas can’t defend himself perfectly well, but if you’re looking to attack people who are unemployed and on food stamps, I’m a much better target than tas is. I really don’t think he’s on food stamps, although I could be wrong. But if you want the real deal, it’s me, baby. I use food stamps, and a food pantry, plus I get cash assistance (WELFARE, BABY!), plus I’m waiting to hear about my application for SSD, and I’m going to be evicted if I can’t come up with the March and April rent by April 1.
So stop wasting your time with tas. He’s small potatoes. If you want to rage at someone who doesn’t have a job or enough money to pay for food and rent, I’m your woman.
Jeff, they clearly claimed the higher ground when they began calling Darleen a whore.
Kathy, the attack on unemployment was began by your boy tas:
one can conceive of any number of ways in which the white males can be cognizant of how a black male might take “boy” and still not mean to offend, or where the black male doesn’t take offense or conceive of the remark as a racial slur: they could be friendly with him, and this could be a running joke.
Uh-huh. But then he wouldn’t, uh, be offended.
Oh, come on tas, give your mom and sisters some time off! They’ve done yeoslut’s work keeping you, their little godforsaken mutant brother-child happy in the basement, so’s he can co-blog on a no-name lefty shit-hole what’s not seen this much traffic in years. Even Kevin at ‘Rump Roast’ (!) gives up a link to little traffic whore Kathy so she can stay afloat.
Tell you what, tas, give ‘em tonight off. You’ll need ‘em well rested to get KOS to link you again.
Kathy, I’m fairly sure your intent was to insult Mr. Goldstein. Plainly and unashamed.
Strange from someone that I believe is sincerely upset at the thought of any random black person being insulted, regardless whether they themselves feel they have been.
Your tender sensibilities seem strangely inconsistent.
Also, your regulars are obviously of much lower class than Protein Wisdom’s. PW’s regulars commenting here seem to banter with a goal of making a point. Yours seem to be simply vile, and kinda stupid.
Do you realize this thread isn’t something you should be proud of?
Well, perhaps it is with the crowd you run with…
Lee, your own farts always smell great.
Nah, I know when I have released a real stinker.
Mostly I do it in the bathroom, so as not to torment others.
Maybe you could light a match?
Actually, we saw plenty more traffic last week, partly due to something else you mention…
The fundraiser for Kathy netted a lot more traffic for CFLF then Trollstein “Wisdom” will ever send — netting bipartisan links, at that — because Kathy is a well-respected blogger on both sides of their sphere. The fact that Goldstein sent over his legion of trolls to attack a blogger that regularly gets respect from the other side just shows how classy you guys are.
Of course, another measure of class can be seen in the reasons Goldstein holds a fundraiser. In lieu of trying to get a job, Jeff would rather petition his readers for dough so he can become a mountain man. Because, you know, charities would never need that cash.
Keep it real, dipshits.
Yup. Why can’t I be a real man and expect my wife to feed me? And god forbid a student receive loans from the government to cover expenses — that’s socialism!
Wouldn’t it be easier to just look in the mirror? Time for another PW fundraiser!
So, tas is a failed waiter? I think Kathy and tas should be out looking for jobs instead of picking fights on the internet. Mostly because self-reliance is liberating, but also because neither of them can write worth a damn making this a truly pathetic way to spend your time. Which is only compounded by the fact that it’s what you mostly do with your lives.
Get out there and sweat that rage off, people! Work will do you good.
Memo to tas: When your employer is hiring new people “for no apparent reason” and yet doesn’t have any hours for you, that means you suck at your job and they don’t want you around. You’ve been replaced. And now you know the unapparent reason. You’re welcome.
Really. Check the schedule. The new person has way more hours than you do. That’s because you’re fired.
Oh damn!!! I missed all the fun.
Thank you Kathy; this is an awesome thread. I can’t decide which line is my favorite.
This one by B Moe: “Later at college I had befriended quite a few blacks because of my love of jazz and blues.”
That’s fucking classic. You just can’t parody these guys. At first I thought it must be someone from The Daily Show doing a mockumentary of a righty commenter. That line is sheer, comic genius.
The there’s this list of beauties from Jeff G:
At 2:48 pm: “Oh, and hi, tas! Let me know if you ever want to meet up so that you can tell me what you really think of me!”
At 4:27 pm: “Does that mean you don’t want to meet me in person, tas?”
At 6:26 pm: “Come on, tas. Let’s meet up.”
At 6:31 pm: “Let me know when you want to meet to call me all these names.”
Righteous!!! It’s the 12 year-old calling out Tas for a fight behind the water tower after school. You see, as The Monster told us at 8:38 am, Jeff G is not self-important but self-deprecating. He’s playing the role of the insecure adolescent so we can all bust our guts laughing. And it works!!! You guys are killing me.
But, all kidding aside … Tas, these folks aren’t to be taken lightly. I got my hands on a tape of a leadershp conference hosted by their ass-kicking leader.
This one by B Moe: “Later at college I had befriended quite a few blacks because of my love of jazz and blues.”
That’s fucking classic. You just can’t parody these guys. At first I thought it must be someone from The Daily Show doing a mockumentary of a righty commenter. That line is sheer, comic genius.
It was 1976 in a small town in WV. A lot more black people were into jazz and blues than white. If you got tired of hanging around smoking dope and listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd with good old boys, the other option was smoking dope and listening to George Benson with the brothers.
You just can’t parody these guys.
But you can accuse them of deceit rather than respond to their points? By the way Kathy, this is a classic example of the discussion. Rather than respond honestly, McSwain prefers to “interpret” my comment as dishonest.
You have to love the way these Protein Wisdom goons shape arguments. Goldstein, apparently having nothing better to do (it must be great to be unemployed and have your wife pay your bills, for years, and then spend years on the internet complaining about people who have real financial problems that may require real government assistance), rifles through my blog looking for ammo to attack me with. Then he cherry picks what I wrote. Instead of mentioning that most of my hours per week is spent being a student since I’m a bit occupied, Jeff frames me as some lazy bastard looking to be on the government’s dole. He also forgets to mention my admittance that I burned through a bunch of resumes this summer looking for a job — which somehow ruins his welfare argument against yours truly. Then Jeff accuses me of “spending weeks” on my blog “complaining” about this, which is funny because a quick check of my blog shows me that I’ve made two posts and two comments in the past couple of weeks. If I spend all my time there, I’m sure not doing a great job.
Jeff, having wasted his time on my blog all day in a pathetic comb for counterattacks, could have mentioned all this. He surely knows it.
Trolls like Goldstein are concerned with only one thing: looking like they’re right even when they’re dead wrong. Then they show a biased views of the facts and take to the internet like a monkey takes to throwing shit, proudly displaying their ignorance like it’s truth. And if somebody gets on Jeff’s nerves when he points out just how full of shit he is? Jeff not only resorts to threats of physical violence, but sometimes Captain Cocko just wants to touch his pee-pee to your face:
Comment threads like these have happened for years because nobody on Protein Wisdom has a fucking life. I try never to link there anymore — and I certainly don’t spend time reading it.
Mostly because self-reliance is liberating….
Pablo.
You know as much about self-reliance as a newborn infant knows about a Ph.D. dissertation thesis.
And no, you’re a stranger and I don’t know you. But I do know this. With the same certainty that I know my name, or my daughter’s birth date, or anything else that’s certain.
Thank you Kathy; this is an awesome thread. I can’t decide which line is my favorite.
Well, thank you, too, Mac. It’s great to see another sane voice in here.
tas, you should so take up Jeff’s offer to meet up. Imagine all of the fun you could have shooting intoxicating gay snuff porn videos with him!!! Boner city!!!!!!!!
You have to love the way these Protein Wisdom goons shape arguments.
Did he really say that out loud? On this thread?
This is what B Moe said once you pry Goldstein’s cock out of his mouth:
Get it?! No difference!
I am outstanding in my field!
Loaning brain cells to those in need since 2003
You guys might want to see about getting some of those back.
Jesus Christ, the guy who sits home all day and relies on the soon-to-be-extinct (March 31st) Pajamas Media blogger-network for the meager income he actually contributes to his family is making fun of other people for being under-employed?
But its not good enough that he has to be a failed writer who sits on his ass responding to people like us while his wife goes out and works to put food in his sons mouth. Now he is eager to risk jail &/or a small stint in prison by arranging some ill-defined duel to fight anonymous internet trollers who insult him? He’s going to let his wife work even harder to pay the legal bills that such an action would surely bring? He’s going to let his son go into school everyday and listen to his peers tease him for having a father who is a two-bit criminal? The worst part is that he probably means it because even though he’s not stupid he is obviously quite disturbed.
The worst part is that this isn’t abnormal for him. One would think that a blogger who loves to publicly insult other people might develop a tolerance to being insulted back, but NO! This is how he responds to EVERYONE who insults him online. Its like a broken record. I’ve seen other people who take up martial arts and suddenly think they are the world’s biggest badass but never anyone who combines as pumped-up an ego with as thin a skin.
Especially those bits that contain the sense of humor.
Even after the “boy” fiasco of the Seventies, I’m happy to report that B Moe Dee didn’t give up on blacks.
In the Ninties, he tired of drying Jack with the good ol’ boys and was driven back toward the blacks because of his love for gin & juice (and not just any gin … Tanqueray, of course).
Let’s see how that turned out for B Moe.
Got nothing, do you macswain? All you can do is swat at the imaginary flies buzzing around your head.