I believe individuals are capable and strong enough to choose to act collectively (whether via consensus, majority rule, or representative democracy) without giving away our power to “The State.” I reject all this “power over” and fear of government nonsense. In my view, we *ARE* the state. We ultimately decide on whether and where we commit troops, how we structure our healthcare, and what environmental, safety, financial, housing, … laws we enact or rescind.

Society is based on structuring our lives toward achieving “the common good” — which, by the way, can include limiting the power of “big government,” if that’s what we want (though ironically, I suspect that even that would entail laws that would require enforcement–including jail or other punishment–which would likely be a function of the very government we’re trying to protect ourselves from.) And yes, the common good can & likely will sometimes be in conflict with what you believe to be your own best interest, but that’s the nature of living with others. Just as a parent sacrifices for his/her kids (& often his/her parents, as well), we choose the common good over our own good, for the benefit of the society as a whole, because we believe in the social contract.

I pay property taxes to support schools for children I will never have, because I believe that an educated population is a good thing for this country. I support a fire department I’ve never used, and hopefully never will, because I don’t want anyone else’s house to burn down, either. I drive on the right side of the road because, while I may not agree with–& perhaps even resent–some government entity before I was ever born choosing the right side over the left, my desire to avoid hurting myself or others by driving wherever the hell I feel like it is greater than my need to exercise that particular freedom.

We cooperate and compromise for the common good all the time, Scroto… Respectfully, there is no society where citizens are not forced or coerced into something they don’t want, often by threat of penalty, and thus by your standards, every one throughout history and the present day has been to one degree or another, Communist/Marxist/Socialist in nature.

Please explain where I’m wrong–and if possible, please name the historic/present day society that was/is on the right track, as far as you’re concerned… Because for the life of me, I can think of no society that has/had little-to-no internal rule of law to achieve common standards of “good,” and use(s/ed) no force, coercion or penalty to encourage compliance with those laws & standards. I’m not sure such a place exists in nature, though I admit, it is a pretty ideal.

With all this talk of Left vs Right extremists/terrorists … can anyone here name a Left Wing Terrorist? … just starting off by examining your intellectual honesty. I look forward to a response.

Macswain: Clearly Von Brunn camped out with parts of the Left Wing. Your rationalization above just betrays your inability to remain objective. Clearly the “9/11 Truth” people are from the Michael Moore/hate Bush/anti-establishment Left Wing … next, not being 100% pro-Israel does not make you anti-semetic but elements of the Left (Rev. Wright, Farrakhan) are outspoken Jew-haters and clearly part of your Left core. The Left’s neutrality, often dislike for Israel has undertones of Jew-hate and Racism. And let’s not forget that Senator Byrd, former KKK member is a Democrat and currently resides in the Senate.

And now for the most controversial part: ….
Conservatives are pro-individual, true Conservatives don’t really care what you look like, only what you think. Identity Politics, ie: racial/gender politics is the domain of the Democrats/Left. Trying to appease and group everybody according to race/gender is a mainstay of today’s Left.

Power of the State over the Individual in my view is a Left Wing mantra. “Liberal” used to mean Liberty but now we see the State gaining more power through the Obama Administration. Liberal has become “Progressive” … Liberty is gone, replaced with “Social Justice” and “Fairness”. Obama is exerting more Executive Power than Bush ever dreamed of via unprecedented Executive Orders, 20+ Czars overseeing all elements of Government, NSA wiretaps continuing, Printing more money, exerting power over the Banks and Industry via TARP are just some examples. Today’s Democrats are constantly pushing for more control at every turn. Whether it be control of your Healthcare, control of your land via environmental laws, the banks, what car you can drive, even what you can eat!! Does anyone deny this?? Sure, it’s supposedly for your own good, but eventually something has to be enforced (ie: jailed or punished) for the “common good” enacted. Communism and the National Socialist Party (Nazi Party) were all about State Power controlling the Individual for the “Common Good” … much as today’s Progressives and Democrats. So although Nazism is often referred to as “Right Wing” … one must consider the Leftist or “Progressive” elements contained within both these systems.

I’m not saying that Progressives and Democrats plan to go as far as Stalin or Hitler to enact their power of collective goodism … but eventually people will be “forced’ or “coerced” into something they don’t want … or alternatively facing some kind of penalty. Respectfully, In my view today’s Democrat/Progressive Ideology is a direct descendant of yesterday’s Communism/Marxist, Socialist, and Nazi movement.

Regarding the mainstream right and the DHS report, which they continue to deny, I think the most prudent thing to say to them is “Look, this isn’t all about you” while pointing to Von Brunn. We can get into arguments on political semantics later; whether a neo-Nazi 9/11 truther should be considered “left” or “right”. The fact which needs to be established right now is that, classically in political science, Nazi-style fascism has always been regarded as being on the “right”. This doesn’t mean it comes from the Republican Party — neo-Nazis like Von Brunn are far to the right of the Republican Party. At the same time, though, when the DHS report discusses rightwing extremism, it comes from all facets of the right; not just mainstream Republicans. If they want to complain that neo-Nazis aren’t from the right, that’s a political science argument for a later date. For now, it’s the classical definition that’s in play, and we obviously have a problem. The most important discussion shouldn’t revolve around semantics.

Of course, that last statement makes me a hypocrite, at least regarding this post and the subsequent comment thread…

But my fear is that the discussion surrounding Von Brunn would quickly devolve into fingerpointing. I’ll point fingers when there’s a connection to the mainstream GOP, but nobody in the Republican Party is proffering Von Brunn’s worldview. If we’re trying to get them to take the threat of rightwing extremism seriously, it’s best not to start that discussion with a slap in the face. That was the intent of this post.

In fact, what the Van Brunn incident reveals is that the real danger of anti-Semitic violence in America exists almost exclusively on the extremist Right. The mainstream right threw a fit (teabag parties, anyone?) when DHS suggested a potential threat from guys like Von Brunn and, thereby, enacted as his enabler.

The fact that scrotum is unaware of the existence of Truthers on both the Right and Left betrays his/her ignorance as does the fact that he/she believes Von Brunn’s Fed attack can in any manner be described as “Leftwing.”

In fact, the logic scrotum employs and connections he draws are similar to the logic employed by the Von Brunn’s on the Right for their anti-Semitic and Racist conspiracy theories.

Skepticat: Rather than parse semantic details in a specific case, let’s look at the “all violence, all the time” vigilante mindset that breeds such events.

One reason why I made this post is because I knew our side would start pointing fingers at anyone on the right in general. In some instances, like that of Tiller’s murderer, the mainstream right does have a large portion of accountability. In this instance, I don’t think it does. The connections aren’t there. In my view, we shouldn’t be chasing shadows when those connections don’t exist.

repsac3: I’m not concerning about Von Brunn posting at Free Republic.. That website has been so famous for so long that pretty much anybody who would never votes for a Democrat posts there. It’s like a catch-all for crap, emphasis on “all”. Plus Von Brunn had a book to sell.

Macswain: Yet, the rights media talkers – e.g. Beck, O’Reilly, Coulter, etc. – regularly spew violent rhetoric that I believe makes the likes of Von Brunn and Roeder and the guy who shot up the Unitarian Church feel that, under an Obama presidency, it is appropriate, even a duty, to pursue their political agendas through violence.

I agree that the right clings to …I’m not sure how to term it, a “culture of desperation” or “inferiority complex,” 24/7/365 underdog-ism… There’s just something about Republican propaganda that always takes shit to the extreme in order to sell books, get votes, etc. And that needs to be fixed, especially given the histories of the suspects in the Pittsburgh cop shooting and Tiller’s shooting. But what was the media that Von Brunn consumed? I’m betting it was a lot more Mein Kampf than Fox News. While both the GOP and neo-Nazis come from the “right,” there’s two different cultures surrounding each of those movements. I feel the need to illustrate this, lest we make the mistake of some of our counterparts on the right and become guilty of overreaching to make an argument.

Rather than parse semantic details in a specific case, let’s look at the “all violence, all the time” vigilante mindset that breeds such events.

Reread what I wrote without adding anything:

James Von Brunn is a right wing extremist.

But let me be more specific:

James Von Brunn is a right wing terrorist. (Suspect).

James Von Brunn is part of the vitriolic right wing extremist movement that has gripped a growing portion of the right wing base.

The “mainstream right” is increasingly gripped with fear and increasingly advocating violent solutions to every shadow that crosses their path (even when it’s their own shadow).

As for any connections between “mainstream Republicans” and violent right wing terrorists, perhaps you should take another measure of what constitutes “mainstream Republicans”.

The Republican Party is far farther to the right than many will admit, and worse, the Republican Party sees violence as a solution, and advocates violence as a solution, to far too many problems.

And it’s naive to think that there is any division between the Republican Party and right wing extremists such as Murdoch’s right wing thugs who advocate violence and torture. They are just different arms of the same violent right wing movement.

When Murdoch’s thug Sean Hannity promotes Neo-Nazi Hal Turner, suddenly you’ve got connections between the Republican Party’s media arm: FOX and a Neo-Nazi. That’s ‘connecting the dots’ and it adds pieces to the intelligence ‘mosaic’.

Violent right wing rhetoric encourages violent right wing lone wolves to commit acts of terrorism.

I reject the notion that Conservatives are somehow racist because we promote smaller Government, Control at the Borders. and lower taxes. Conservatives have admittedly not been effective at promoting these ideas in the Minority Community while Democrats have themselves been effective at fear tactics and stereotypes regarding Conservatives/GOP’ers.

I read the comments of many conservatives on various blogs and the racist talk, the hate-filled statements and the violent rhetoric is out of control. I suspect there will be more Rudolphs and McVeighs still to come.

While I agree that von Brunn wasn’t actually a member of the mainstream right, *he* seemed to think he was… Chances are slim one will find any similar links of von Brunn on leftwing sites, no matter what Ms. Shaidle & those of her ilk wish to allege… (That “guilt by association” thing Kathy’s spouting can be like spitting during a windstorm… You never know when it’ll blow back atcha… )

Cite me connections that Von Brunn has to mainstream GOP propaganda

BTW, most of that propaganda is so pro-Israel it would embarrass left-leaning Israelis. This is far different from where Von Brunn stood.

But you’ve won some right wing fans, “tas”.

And pissing off the left, while earning pissed off links from the right a week ago. Everybody hates me. I guess I must be doing something right.

As you’ve noted, “tas”, you haven’t done much research before trying to disassociate right wing extremist James Von Brunn from the vitriolic right wing extremist rhetoric that has gripped a growing portion of the right wing base.

Let’s not create artificial divisions, especially when you don’t have any evidence to support your conclusions.

But you’ve won some right wing fans, “tas”.